Former Crossville Police Chief Rod Shoap tapped for E-911 Director-County City cost share questioned by City Council.

The Cumberland County Central Communications Committee has voted to offer the position of E-911 Emergency Communications Director to former Crossville Police Chief Rod Shoap.  The CCC has been searching for a new director since the previous one was dismissed. 

Mr. Shoap said he would be meeting with Cumberland County Mayor Kenneth Carey first thing Monday morning to work out details of the position.  The position oversees the 911 dispatch center that is jointly operated by Cumberland County and the City of Crossville.

Rod Shoap

Rod Shoap's background includes a Masters in Public Administration and a graduate of the FBI Academy. He served as interim Crossville police chief until July 2016. Previously Mr. Shoap served as Maury County magistrate, director of planning for the Williamson County sheriff's department and sheriff of Lee County Florida after many years working for that department.

Members of the Cumberland County CCC are Chairman: Cumberland Co. Mayor Kenneth Carey Jr.; Vice Chairman: City Manager: Greg Wood; EMA Director Rick Williams; Crossville Police Chief David Beaty; Crossville Fire Chief Mike Turner; Cumberland County Sheriff Casey Cox; Cumberland Co. Fire Chief Trevor Kerley; EMS Director Chris Miller; Cumberland Co. Board Chairman Everett Bolin.

Shoap may have his work cut out for him based on a discussion at the end of the Crossville city council's work session about the CCC situation. 

E-911 Dispatch Center

Recent changes to the relationship between the E-911 Board and the CCC were discussed during the city council's work session prior to Shoap's selection.  City attorney Will Ridley explained to the council that the CCC's responsibility is to hire the dispatch center director and the E-911 Board only purchases equipment.  Previously the City, County, and E-911 Board shared the costs of the dispatch operation and after the E-911 Board pulled out of the agreement the City and County now share the costs together. 

Ridley said that while the dispatchers were county employees they do not report to the county mayor but to the CCC Director and the CCC Director reports to the CCC Board. Currently, the city has 3 seats on the CCC Board and the county has the majority.  Ridley and County attorney Randy Boston said there was no other Tennessee county with a CCC Board. 

"In most counties, the county mayor hires the CCC Director," explained Ridley.  He added that the city is currently a 50/50 partner in an organization they have a minority membership in. In addition, Ridley said the city had half of the liability for employee situations.

CROSSVILLE FLASHBACK: Recapping one year since interim police chief Rod Shoap's resignation

It's been one year since interim police chief Rod Shoap resigned after saying he was tired of waiting on the city to hire him as the full time chief. The original story of Shoap's resignation at the link just below remains the most read story ever posted on the Jim Young Reporter news blog

Rod Shoap Resigns. 

Former interim Crossville Police

Chief Rod Shoap

Following Shoap's resignation, Major Mark Rosser was sworn in as interim chief. After serving in that position for 6 months, the city hired back previously retired police chief David Beaty. As of June 30, exactly one year after Shoap's resignation, Rosser retired from the city and taken a position with Fairfield Glade Security.

Mark Rosser sworn in by Mayor James Mayberry

Rosser sworn in as interim chief. 

The day following Shoap's resignation, both then councilman Jesse Kerley and interim city manager Steve Hill reacted to the resignation and comments made by Mr. Shoap. Mr. Kerley stated that he wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Shoap got the city sued. Ironically, Mr. Shoap ended up suing the city and Mr. Kerley in federal court for age discrimination, libel and slander. The case remains under litigation.

Hill and Kerley comment on Shoap resignation.

Former city councilman

Jesse Kerley

Former interim city manager

Steve Hill

Kerley phone call following Shoap resignation. 

Shoap posted an open letter about his resignation on his Facebook page including a reference to texts from Councilman Jesse Kerley.  

Shoap Facebook Statement on his resignation

On July 3rd, Former city manager David Rutherford speculated that a big part of the reason he was fired was because he proposed to hire Shoap to the police chief position full time. Rutherford said his decision to try and hire Shoap as full police chief led Kerley to demand the city manager's resignation.

Rutherford speculates on why he was fired suddenly

Former city manager David Rutherford

Then in August 2016, interim city manager Steve Hill was asked in followup about the investigation that he and councilman Jesse Kerley claimed was started against Rod Shoap concerning treatment of a female police officer. Hill stated at that time that there was no investigation that he knew of and called it simply “talk.”

Steve Hill responds to question on alleged

Shoap investigation

Interim city manager Steve Hill responds to questions about "Shoap investigation." . 

Ultimately, Rod Shoap filed a law suit against the city and councilman Kerley claiming age discrimination along with slander and libel as a result of the actions and comments.  The lawsuit remains unresolved.

Shoap sues city and Kerley.

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Former interim police chief Rod Shoap files $200,000 lawsuit against Crossville and Jesse Kerley

Former interim police chief Rod Shoap's federal lawsuit names the city of Crossville and Jesse Kerley as defendants in the suit filed last week over employment practices.

The city and Kerley have 21 days to respond to the suit.

The lawsuit claims Shoap suffered age discrimination, breach of contract as well as slander and libel.

Rod Shoap

The suit claims that then councilman Jesse Kerley approached Shoap with a list of improper demands and illegal demands “from the beginning of (Shoap's) employment.” Shoap believed that Kerley could affect his transition from interim chief to permanent police chief. And when Shoap refused to acquiesce to Kerley's demands, he threatened to email Shoap's supervisor, interim city manager Steve Hill, district attorney Bryant Dunaway, various other city council members claiming that Shoap was “insubordinate, ill equipped for the position and committing felonies.”

The lawsuit outlines a list of demands made by Mr. Kerley including investigation of director of schools Donald Andrews, an action out side of Shoap's jurisdiction. The suit states that Kerley made numerous demands for action against councilman Pete Souza alleging assault but “without having sufficient evidence or probable cause.” Kerley contacted DA Dunaway on the matter to have Shoap removed and charged with misconduct.

Jesse Kerley

The suit outlines a number of attempts by Mr. Kerley to have J. R. Blankenship arrested after he spoke at a council meeting and was charged with distributing unsigned fliers. Kerley sought to have Blankenship arrested and jailed several times including alleging his vehicle was not properly registered or insured when it was and seeking to have Blankenship's mother arrested for lying to police.

Shoap reportedly brought these action to interim manager Steve Hill as they arose, including his reasons for not complying with Kerley's demands. It is unknown if Hill ever addressed these issues with Kerley.

Steve Hill

Shoap's lawsuit alleges that he was originally hired by city manager David Rutherford who had offered Shoap the full time chief position shortly before Rutherford was fired by the city council. Shoap believed that the offer of employment would be honored by interim manager Hill but the hire date kept being delayed putting Shoap's employment status “in limbo for approximately six months.”

When Shoap resigned the interim position, he alleges that numerous defamatory statements were made about him alleging that Shoap resigned because he found out he was under investigation. Shoap said that he received a text message from Kerley stating so. In addition, Kerley repeated the same claim to local news media. A follow up story included a quote from interim manager Hill that there was no investigation.

Other claims made by Kerley against Shoap include allegations he had taken an guitar from police evidence for his personal use, allegations Shoap had an extramarital affair and shared that information with local media. The suit outlines allegations of Kerley's harassment of Shoap including references to “old men” and derogatory statements concerning his faith.

Shoap states that due to all of the reasons outlined he was forced to resign his position and even though he has applied for several positions, he remains unemployed. The suit also claims protection under the whistle-blower act of Tennessee relating to Kerley's orders to Shoap to commit alleged illegal acts.

The lawsuit seeks $200,000 in damages, that the city cease and desist in engaging in or facilitating discriminatory practices, that the city shall halt its employees from operating under the color of law and the defendants pay for attorney's fees and expenses as well as cost and fees in the matter.

City attorney Will Ridley is out of town at the time of this story but has been requested to comment on the matter. We also left a message for interim manager Steve Hill.  

Crossville police department earns state accreditation

After 18 months of hard work the Crossville police department has been recognized as an accredited agency by the Tennessee Association of Chiefs of Police (TACP) through the Tennessee Law Enforcement Accreditation (TLEA) program.

The certificate was presented to Crossville Mayor James Mayberry and interim police chief Mark Rosser by Randy Evans, district representative of the TACP and chief of police for Cookeville. Evans described CPD's achievement in reaching “an such an important and much coveted milestone.” Evans added that the award recognizes much work and commitment.

Mayor James Mayberry, interim police chief Mark Rosser 

and Cookeville police chief Randy Evans

The accreditation program is voluntary with no requirement to participate in the program that consists of 161 standards that an agency must meet. Policy and directives are required and complaince with those 161 standards explained Evans. “It takes great commitment, dedication, and hard work by the agency head, agency personnel and city leaders to meet the standards,” said Evans.

According to Evans, most agencies take about 3 years to meet the standards while CPD was able to accomplish the certification program in some 18 months. Benefits of the program in addition to strong policies, non-discrimination and better management as well as reduced insurance costs.

The standards of excellence that have been met through the accreditation process should be looked upon with great respect,” concluded Evans.

The drive to accreditation began with a meeting between former city manager David Rutherford and former interim police chief Rod Shoap a short time after Shoap started at the city. Shoap explained that he had much experience with accreditation at both the state and national levels and the program was important to CPD because policies had not been changed since 1994 at the department.

Shoap offered his congratulations on the department's accomplishment and said the whole department  had worked on the project. Shoap said one of the biggest jobs was the auditing and reorganization of the department's evidence storage.

Interim chief Mark Rosser commented about the accomplishment, "The benefits of Accreditation are numerous and include sound written directives to help guide police officers, better management of information for sound decision making, fair and non-discriminatory personnel practices, as well as reduced insurance costs ($100 per officer through TML-RMP).  The standards of excellence that have been met through the accreditation process is looked upon with great pride by the Crossville Police Department. I am proud to recognize the hard work of this department and its staff."

Crossville PD is the 42nd agency in Tennessee to achieve accreditation in TLEA.

Rosser pointed out part of what the TACP says about the importance of accreditation, "the reason for the Policy is what we say we do. Proofs mandated by accreditation show that we do what we say. Next and just as importantly, the process does not end upon the award of accreditation. Our departments must maintain annual updates, and checks and balances to retain accreditation. This keeps us on the continual progressive trajectory of best practices and professional police service."

The initial accreditation is valid for a term of three years.  

Crossville seeking Chief of Police applications.

The City of Crossville has posted a notice on the city's website seeking applications for the position of Police Chief.  The Chief position has been in the news often this year as interim chief Rod Shoap resigned and then Mark Rosser was then appointed as interim chief.  

The city will take applications through December 7.  A copy of the listing is below.

CITY OF CROSSVILLE POSITION OPEN

CHIEF OF POLICE

The City of Crossville (population 11,246) is seeking resumes for the position of Chief of Police. Under the executive direction of the City Manager, the Chief of Police is responsible for planning, directing, implementing and evaluating the activities of the Police Department. Responsibilities include recruitment and selection of personnel, formulation of policies and procedures, and preparation of an annual budget. The ideal candidate must be P.O.S.T. certified and possess a Bachelor’s degree in Police Science, Public Administration, Criminal Justice, or related field. Candidate will have served as Chief, or Assistant Chief, a minimum of seven (7) years. Any equivalent combination of education and experience which provides the person with the knowledge and abilities required to perform the job may substitute for the above, at the discretion of the City. Consideration will be given for FBI National Academy and/or Southern Police Institutes and FBI Leeds graduate. Salary will be a minimum of $57,057.53 and negotiable DOQ/DOE. Position will also include a comprehensive benefit package. Other requirements include:

• Must possess a valid Tennessee operator’s license or obtain such
• Must reside within Cumberland County, or move into Cumberland County within 90 days of employment
• Meet annual P.O.S.T. in-service requirements
• Must have completed P.O.S.T. Law Enforcement Management and Administration training
• Evidence of continuing professional development
• Must be examined by a City designated physician to make a determination if applicant will be able to meet the physical standards of law enforcement personnel

A complete job description is available upon request. Resume and cover letter is to be mailed to: Leah Crockett, Human Resources Administrator, 392 N. Main Street, Crossville, TN 38555 or via email at leah.crockett@crossvilletn.gov. Resumes will be accepted until 4:00PM CST on December 7, 2016.

The City of Crossville is an EEO/Affirmative action employer and does not discriminate on the basis of race, age, sex, religion, color, disability or national origin.

Previous stories:

Shoap resignation surprised many.

Rosser sworn in as interim police chief.

Rutherford says his plan to hire Shoap as chief lead to his firing.

Tale of the Tape II. Security video from the city hall IT department the morning of June 3, 2016.

About 12 hours after the incident between councilmen Pete Souza and Jesse Kerley and Kerley's father Jerry Kerley, director of water resources following a budget work session the evening of June 2, 2016, the two Kerleys and interim city manager Steve Hill were in the city's IT department to review the security tape of the incident early the next morning.

Through a freedom of information request, video from the security camera inside the IT department was legally obtained and it shows a flurry of activity on Friday morning June 3 from 7:28 AM through 8:11 AM on the morning following the incident in the city hall doorway that eventually led to an assault charge against councilman Kerley that was dismissed following a hearing in General Session Court.

Councilman Jesse Kerley, right enters the city hall IT office

followed by interim city manager Steve Hill and 

his father Jerry Kerley, director of water resources.

The two Kerleys and Hill arrived at city hall and entered the IT department offices at 7:28.  The video is time stamped as 6:28, but for some reason the time did not adjust to daylight savings time.  There is only a single camera in the IT department and it only shows the door and some of the lobby area just outside of IT, but what it shows is much discussion between the men, and the arrival a bit later on of city attorney Will Ridley then interim police chief Rod Shoap who was the last to arrive at about 7:52 AM.

Shoap wrote about his recollection of that morning meeting that left him frustrated.

At about 7:45 am my phone rang and it was interim city manager Hill asking when I was coming (to city hall). I said I was ready to leave and just waiting for Kyle to get to work. Hill said Kyle was already there and said he was going to Kyle’s office to ask him to begin finding the video.

I was at Kyle’s office in less than five minutes and I saw Councilman Kerley, Jerry Kerley and Hill already in the office with Kyle. Kyle had already found the video, made copies and gave everyone a copy.

As I walked in, Councilman Kerley said, “See, the video shows it just like I said it was and I want him charged.” Kyle had the video on his computer already running so I saw a portion in the vestibule but it looked like the Kerleys assaulted Sousa. Kyle handed me a disc and said, “this is a full length version.” I didn’t know what that meant and I’m still not certain today.

Then Councilman Kerley began asking questions about Judge Gardner’s case against (J.R.) Blankenship* about was I writing a report, was I handling it or was the Sheriff, and acting in a very ugly tone. I became frustrated and left.

I went to the finance department to conduct my business and when I walked in, Leah Crockett, the Human Resource Administrator, and Sue Blaylock, an accountant, were in. Immediately Leah asked if I were okay as they noticed how frustrated I was.

Hill now came in and asked me to follow him to his office. I went with him and it was his way of helping to settle me down as they all knew how upset I was at Kerley’s interference and disturbing talk.

I informed Steve Hill that I would go to my office, write my report and bring it back for his approval. I did that and returned around 3:00pm. Hill looked at my report and approved it. 

The following Monday, Chief Shoap forwarded the report and all his information including the video of the interaction between the Kerley and Mr. Souza to the district attorney's office who took over the investigation from there into the June 2 matter.

Security camera video from Crossville city hall IT department 

on the morning of June 3, 2016 

(Sections of this video that show no activity 

have been edited out to shorten the length)

TIMELINE FROM VIDEO: (time has been adjusted by one hour from the time stamp)

7:28 AM Jesse and Jerry Kerley and Steve Hill arrive at the city hall IT department.

7:30 AM Jesse Kerley is on the phone

7:36 AM Jesse Kerley goes out side of city hall to talk to someone.  That person wearing an orange shirt comes into the lobby and they continue to talk.  Councilman Kerley is very animated and making body movements including a shoulder throw at one point.

7:38 AM Man in orange shirt leaves.

7:40 AM Jesse Kerley  talks on the phone in the lobby outside the IT office.

7:41 AM Jesse returns inside IT office 

7:42 AM Steve Hill goes out of IT office

7:45 AM Hill returns.

7:50 AM Hill goes out to lobby then goes to outside door to let city attorney Will Ridley in.  Hill tries to get back in IT office but is locked out.  Jesse Kerley lets them in.

7:51 AM All participants are out of camera range.

7:52 AM Jerry Kerley and Steve Hill go to lobby to talk.

7:52 AM Interim police chief Rod Shoap arrives and speaks briefly with Jerry Kerley and Hill.

7:53 AM Shoap enters IT office while Kerley and Hill continue talking in lobby.

7:55 AM Jerry Kerley and Steve Hill reenter IT office.

7:57 AM Jesse Kerley on phone and goes out to lobby.

8:02 AM Kerley returns in IT office.

8:09 AM Shoap quickly exits IT office and goes into the finance office.

8:10 AM Shoap returns to lobby and goes into the IT office quickly as Jesse Kerley, Attorney Ridley and Hill go out to lobby.  Shoap then exits IT and returns to finance department area.  

8:11 AM Council Kerley and attorney Ridley go outside the building while Hill and Jerry Kerley continue to talk in the lobby.  Jerry Kerley then goes left and Hill goes right to the finance department, the direction Shoap went.

Video of the June 2 incident following a council budget work session that was reviewed 

and copies distributed the following morning by the Kerley's 

and interim city manager Steve Hill.

*Gardner vs Blankenship:  City judge Ivy Gardner filed a request for a restraining order against Blankenship claiming in a court filing that he “has engaged in a pattern of conduct to harass and unnecessarily alarm” Ms. Gardner. The restraining order request comes from the sign that had been in Blankenship's yard on Mockingbird Drive that says, “Twerley Trash=Quid Pro Quo 107 143 68” The numbers correspond to house numbers of property owned by councilman Jesse Kerley, his brother Joseph Kerley and a house owned by Joe B. Gardner, Jr.

Rod Shoap and 23 other candidates seeking Crossville city manager position

Six new applicants have submitted resumes for the Crossville city manager position including one name most local residents will recognize.

Former interim Crossville police chief Rod Shoap has submitted his resume seeking the position of city manager, a position expected to be filled around the time 2 newly elected council members take office on December 5.

5 additional applications have been received and according to Crossville HR coordinator Leah Crockett, one previous candidate has requested his name be removed from consideration.

The new candidates include:

Rod Shoap of Crossville TN has a Masters in Public Administration and is a graduate of the FBI Academy.  He served as interim Crossville police chief until July 2016.  Previously Mr. Shoap served as Maury County magistrate, director of planning for the Williamson County sheriff's department and sheriff of Lee County Florida after many years working for that department.  

Rod Shoap

David R. Burkett of Apple Valley CA currently serves as the project construction manager of Hesperia CA, a position he's held since 2005.  Previously he served as a project engineer for Yucca Valley CA and he has a BS in Business and Public Administration from University of Phoenix.

Holly Lockhart of Holly Springs NC currently works as an inside sales representative for Boon Adams where she has worked since 2014.  She has experience in sales, consulting and insurance. She holds a Masters in Public Administration and her cover letter says she would consider negotiating a lower salary because she does not have the years experience requested.  

Jennifer James-Mesloh of Marquette MI holds a PhD in public affairs and a Masters in Public Administration.  Since 2013 she has served as assistant professor and program coordinator of the MPA program at Northern Michigan University.  In addition, she has worked for Advanced Research, Inc, a consulting business since 2003 as a consultant to public and non-profit agencies.

 Michael P. Putt, Sr. of Memphis seeks the city manager position.  He has worked for the Memphis fire department since 1984 having retired earlier this year as director of fire services, a position he held since 2014.  He served as deputy director of fire services from 2008 to 2014.

Harry Slaven of Richland WA most recently worked as the finance director of Bandon OR and before that as city administrator/planner of Hoona AK.  He worked in municipal management since 1989 at various levels.  He served 6 years on the board of the Richland WA housing authority.  He holds a Masters of Public Administration.

Previous applicant Jordan Shaw of Franklin TN requested that his name be removed from consideration for the position.  

The other remaining candidates are:

Wayne R. Bodie of Orlando Florida currently serves as a captain in the Orange Co. fire and rescue department. He has worked for the department since 2005. Bodie holds an MBA and also works as a fire instructor. He has previous experience in financial services.

Robert G. Bray, Jr. of Pinellas Park Florida is seeking the position after retiring as the Community Planning Director for Pinellas Park Florida between 1995 and 2016.  Prior to that Bray had additional planning experience from 1985-95.  He also has a Masters of Public Adminsitration.  

Carl Brown of Tampa Florida is currently the senior financial analyst for the City of Tampa Florida and has held that position since June 2015. He oversees the fire department and police department budgets. From July 2014 to June 2015 he was a budget and management analyst for the Department of Homeland Security at Santa Fe New Mexico. Mr. Brown has a Masters of Public Administration in city management, economic development and urban planning from East Tennessee State University. He was an actor in Los Angles for 11 years.

Mike Chesney of Knoxville holds an MBA and is currently the administrator of the First Baptist Church of Morristown. The church has 70 employees and $3.1 million budget. From 2013 to 2015, Chesney served as the interim city manager of Millington Tennessee. Prior experience included many years of telecommunications and cable management.

Cary Colaianni of Eagle Idaho holds a masters in public administration as well as a Doctor of Jurisprudence (Law degree). Mr. Colaianni has 20 years of experience in municipal government including from 2004 to 2014 as the city attorney and law department director for Bosie Idaho. The department had 51 employees. From 1991 to 2004, he served as the Ada County prosecuting attorney in Bosie Idaho.

Steve Foote of Dunwoody Georgia serves that community as the Director of Economic and Community Development. He has served in that capacity as the employee of a contractor starting in 2014 and now as a direct employee of the city. Previously Foote served as director of planning for Mt. Juliet Tennessee from 2009 to 2014. Foote's education includes a BS in Geography and Biology and graduate work toward an Masters in Geography.

Jason Hall of Lyons Georgia where he has served as the current city manager since april of 2013. His previous experience includes serving as city administrator of Varnell Georgia between 2011 and 2013 and a codes enforcement officer for Ringgold Georgia from 2004 to 2011. Hall has an associates degree in education and additional course work in business management

The only local applicant so far is Frank Horvath whose resume lists his current position as business and project manager of Crossville Smiles since January 2013. Mr. Horvath holds an MBA from University of Indianapolis and previously worked as project manager for SciSaves, LLC

Lane Hayden Jones of Bonham Texas served as the deputy chief of staff-CEO of business operations for the Marine Corps community services for Camp Pendleton California. He currently works as a business analyst for the firm of Mason, Norris & Associates.

Daron E. Jordan of Madisonville Kentucky serves as that city's community development director, a position he has held since 2005. He holds a masters degree in organizational management, is a certified economic developer and also operates a consulting firm that specializes in grant writing and administration.

Catrina Maxwell of Milwaukee Wisconsin currently serves as the deputy clerk of the court for Milwaukee county. Ms. Maxwell holds a Master's degree in public service with a specialization in criminal justice administration.

Louis A. Ogaard of West Valley City Utah holds a PhD in Botany and has 20 years experience with the state of North Dokota where he manage and environmental restoration program. His latest position was providing environmental support at Dugway Proving Ground in Utah.

Adam R. Rabe of Marengo Iowa. Mr. Rabe has served as director of the Iowa Co. Iowa EMS since 2008. Part of his tenure was as a hospital employee then the EMS service became part of the county operation. In addition, Rabe served 8 years on the Marengo city council, currently serves on the local 911 board and holds a BS in public administration.

Sammy J. Ragsdale of Dodge City, Kansas is the assistant county administrator of Ford County Kansas and from September 2015 to March 2016 he was the chief financial officer of the High Country Council of Governments at Boone County North Carolina. Previous positions incude a city management consultant in Burlington Colorado, City manager of Clifton Texas and a US Navy veteran. He has a BS degree and graduate work towards an MBA.

Christian Saxe currently holds the position of assistant public works director at Spring Hill Tennessee, a position he's held since October of 2015. From 2008 to 2015 Saxe was deputy director of public works for the city of Orange California. He holds a bachelors degree in public administration.

Dennis Sparks of Hopewell Virginia has experience as various city/village managers from 1999 to 2005 in several different states. Sparks is currently a management and aviation consultant as well as a pilot and flight instruction. Sparks has an MBA.

Tina Tuggle of Kingston Tennessee is currently a municipal finance trainer and previously served as the city manager of Oliver Springs Tennessee from June 2012 to November 2014. She also served as Oliver Springs' city recorder from 2010 to 2012. She holds an associate degree in legal science. 

Greg Wood of Baker Florida has a masters of public administration from the University of Florida. From 2013 to 2016 Mr. Wood has served as the county administrator of Harris County Georgia. From 2010 to 2012 he served as the county manager for Jasper County Georgia and from 2007 to 2009 as the county administrator of Holmes Co. Florida and similar experience back to 1984.